From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: The Bulgars are Bulgars (Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars)
Date: 22 Feb 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <36d0a349.273703124@news.yale.edu>
References: <36ca073a.16343620@news.yale.edu> <36cca3ed.14676934@news.yale.edu> <36ccb13d.18084634@news.yale.edu> <7ap23l$klu@cpca3.uea.ac.uk>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.lang

On 21 Feb 1999 13:35:49 GMT, e.karloukovski@uea.ac.uk (Vassil
Karloukovski) wrote:

>In article <36ccb13d.18084634@news.yale.edu>, cluster.user@yale.edu says...
>
>>as for old bulgarian aside, from the fact some words are seen
>>in turkic I have suspicions with these:
>...
>>> IMAET - a trustee, in the    Imaet - a trustee, a
>>> expression ZHUPAN I IMAET    guardian (Pamirian)
>>> GEORGE
>>
>>
>>imaet (pamirian) sounds like `ar. 'ama:na(t) (putting into
>>                               trust)
>>
>>if so, the old bulgarian word must be something else.
>
>
>This word IMAET comes from a cyrillic inscription (on the walls of 
>a rock church) which mixes slavic and bulgar words:
>
>  ZHUPAN I IMAET GEORGE ONC TEBE TAM ESTEK KRAIN I REZHET.
>
>Dobrev translates it as
> THE ZHUPAN AND GUARDIAN GEORGE PROMISES YOU EIGHTY PIECES OF GOLD 
> AND SO MUST BE IT!,
>
>ESTEK (eighty), KRAIN (gold pieces), REZHET (it may be!), ONC, ZHUPAN
>and IMAET being iranian (pamirian) words according to him. Somebody

for the etymology he gives, it looks suspicious - it is worth checking

if the word is old or a recent loan in pamirian.

>else could probably offer another, more slavic-like interpretation.
>
>...
>>> Volga Bulgar word            Closest analogies
>>
>>> 
>>> KHALDZHA - the lakes near   Khalidzh - an inlet, a pool,
>>> the summer palace of the    a lake in some Pamirian
>>> king of the Volga Bulgars   languages
>>> Almus in 921 AD.
>>
>>
>>xali:*dj* is found in arabic (gulf, thus inlet). if that
>>is the word, then xal*dj*a must come from somewhere else.
>
>
>KHALDZHA is mentioned by Ibn-Fadlan: "And when we met the king, we 
>found he had stopped for a rest and temporary residence in the so 
>called Khaldzha, in fact this region was situated between three 
>lakes - one small and two big ones, whose bottoms are unreachable. 
>Between this place and the enormous river that flows towards the 
>country of the khazars and is known under the name of Atil (Volga), 
>the distance was one farsah."
>
>Could it be that "Khaldzha" was Ibn-Fadlan's own translation of the 
>name of the place - "The Lakes", "Lake district", or something similar?

I doubt it! there is no such word in arabic. it's just the etymology 
that is suspicious. the turkic etymology *might* be from ko":l (lake)
+ -*ch*e (diminutive suffix, happens to be found in iranian as well).
I don't know how ko":l is found in -r turkic, but I know that at least
some o": might be rendered as a: or sound like it. or ... I don't
know.


>
>
>Regards,
>Vassil K.
>